beejam
Mar 24, 08:05 PM
Now I feel really old with all this OS X ten celebrations! Doesn't help that I started with System 6.....
edenwaith
Mar 24, 03:07 PM
I recall the count down on Apple's homepage, waiting for it to come out. Several days after Mac OS X's release, my Power Mac G4 (which still runs) would arrive, and I slapped in a second hard drive so I could have OS 9 on one hard drive (20 GB) and Mac OS X on the other (15 GB).
I quickly made good use of Mac OS X's UNIX internals by making a PHP-Apache-MySQL project for a class. I made Mac OS X my primary OS pretty much from Day 1. I believe Photoshop was one of the last major programs I needed to launch regularly from Classic.
I quickly made good use of Mac OS X's UNIX internals by making a PHP-Apache-MySQL project for a class. I made Mac OS X my primary OS pretty much from Day 1. I believe Photoshop was one of the last major programs I needed to launch regularly from Classic.
nimasm
Jan 15, 02:44 PM
zimtheinvader you're right: MBA does not compare favourably to other products available. Thinness is a nice quality, and indeed it gives that premium edge to the MBA that other UMPCs lack, but Apple's seeming need to give you a full-featured, full-screen, full-clock speed computer is contrary to the needs of ultraportability. While I don't begrudge the Core 2 processor, nor the ample RAM, I can't say that a 13.3" widescreen is essential. (Indeed, if you're aiming for portability, then the dinosaur 4:3 format offers a greater ratio of screen area to overall dimensions).
I recently had the opportunity to borrow an Asus Eee PC, and was blown away by the advantages of its form factor. It was solidly built, confidence inspring, yet portable. The MBA makes me worry about potential flimsiness. How will it compared to a Macbook if bashed in the centre of the lid. The Eee PC, while slow and cramped, at least has rigidity
Moreover, do people really want to pay more for a compromised solution? Compare the Eee PC at �200. Now I don't wish to say that the Eee PC is something Apple should have produced, but in almost every respect it is in the right direction. It's smaller in the correct sense (reducing the greater dimensions first), sturdier, cheaper. Asus have done a fantastic job of this, and I don't doubt that Apple could have done it even better. How about a 10-12" screen, make it thin if you really must, but make it cheap, and drop pretentions of selling people a widescreen video-editing 'supercomputer'?
With my cursory memory of the MBA's features, I can't think of a single argument other than a need to have the latest thing for the MBA over the top of the range Macbook, a notebook which I subjectively think looks more attractive, too.
What consumers would go for would be more portability, more affordability, at the expense of screen real estate and ultimate performance. What have given us is equal portability, a lot less affordability, and less performance.
I recently had the opportunity to borrow an Asus Eee PC, and was blown away by the advantages of its form factor. It was solidly built, confidence inspring, yet portable. The MBA makes me worry about potential flimsiness. How will it compared to a Macbook if bashed in the centre of the lid. The Eee PC, while slow and cramped, at least has rigidity
Moreover, do people really want to pay more for a compromised solution? Compare the Eee PC at �200. Now I don't wish to say that the Eee PC is something Apple should have produced, but in almost every respect it is in the right direction. It's smaller in the correct sense (reducing the greater dimensions first), sturdier, cheaper. Asus have done a fantastic job of this, and I don't doubt that Apple could have done it even better. How about a 10-12" screen, make it thin if you really must, but make it cheap, and drop pretentions of selling people a widescreen video-editing 'supercomputer'?
With my cursory memory of the MBA's features, I can't think of a single argument other than a need to have the latest thing for the MBA over the top of the range Macbook, a notebook which I subjectively think looks more attractive, too.
What consumers would go for would be more portability, more affordability, at the expense of screen real estate and ultimate performance. What have given us is equal portability, a lot less affordability, and less performance.
razzmatazz
Sep 12, 07:25 AM
Man I'm going to be at school while this is all going on. Hmm...time to play sick :rolleyes: :D
more...
intlplby
Sep 25, 11:36 AM
yeah i hope it's teh snappy too... i get beach balls all the time on my fully loaded MBP too.....
it's gonna be nice that it ties in with the other iLife apps.
it's gonna be nice that it ties in with the other iLife apps.
![pictures of justin bieber. Justin Bieber – Never Say Never amp; Baby [Live on SMAP Japan 2011]. by Daisy on May 30, 2011. { 3 comments }](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_sBXaUuCsv8PkpRVg-3X-l6C1PHq8ixgLJP69iJWAGpHS72K1bhW5h4rLq6Upda7XlDubWIAG_Y6jk-GMqD-nh8sDamVu3bTwSO9ckIJcQJ_V59kJ-LupQGPKfo-gh2MiglrSvaUowj-B7Le-I9CD8vONhKrCHjgCKIZl3aJs_A1A=s0-d "Justin Bieber – Never Say Never amp; Baby [Live on SMAP Japan 2011]. by Daisy on May 30, 2011. { 3 comments }")
TheSideshow
Apr 21, 09:14 PM
Hopefully it's totally new from the ground up, ditch all the Win32/legacy crap that's hindered MSFT for years.
That would be idiotic by Microsoft.
That would be idiotic by Microsoft.
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OdduWon
Oct 16, 03:01 AM
I suppose this tuesday (10/17) is more likely than last tuesday was... As we approach the holidays, each week brings more promise. But I'm not getting my hopes up...
yes, and the 5th anniversary of ipod is this week as well :eek: . shuffles a ship'n soon, and ipod cinema :eek: may added to mark the date. or maybe it will be april all over again :p
yes, and the 5th anniversary of ipod is this week as well :eek: . shuffles a ship'n soon, and ipod cinema :eek: may added to mark the date. or maybe it will be april all over again :p
fivepoint
Mar 4, 11:06 AM
It does not.
Yes, it does.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Rubber-Room-Doc-Reveals-Teachers-Paid-For-Nothing-90804024.html
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/03/05/why-we-must-fire-bad-teachers.html
Yes, it does.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Rubber-Room-Doc-Reveals-Teachers-Paid-For-Nothing-90804024.html
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/03/05/why-we-must-fire-bad-teachers.html
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Ommid
Apr 25, 11:49 AM
4s ftw.
MacRumors
Aug 1, 08:37 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)
Macworld.co.uk reports (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=15415&Page=1&pagePos=3) that Apple has provided an intial response to Norway's Consumer Council regarding Apple's Digital Rights Management and the terms of service in Apple's iTunes Music store.
The contents of the response are not yet public, but Macworld.co.uk claims that "the contents of the letter could determine the future of the iTunes music store in Norway, Sweden and Denmark."
The initial complaint filed (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060606203834.shtml) was based on Apple's Digital Rights Management protection that accompanies every iTunes song sold. Apple's DRM reportedly violates the Norwegian Copyright Act because the songs can only be played on Apple's iPod.
The French legislature recently received (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060630152628.shtml) a lot of attention for trying to pass a similar law in France. There was speculation that Apple would withdraw iTunes from France if the law came into effect. In the end a softened version of the law passed in France and has had no immediate effects on Apple iTunes France.
Macworld.co.uk reports (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=15415&Page=1&pagePos=3) that Apple has provided an intial response to Norway's Consumer Council regarding Apple's Digital Rights Management and the terms of service in Apple's iTunes Music store.
The contents of the response are not yet public, but Macworld.co.uk claims that "the contents of the letter could determine the future of the iTunes music store in Norway, Sweden and Denmark."
The initial complaint filed (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060606203834.shtml) was based on Apple's Digital Rights Management protection that accompanies every iTunes song sold. Apple's DRM reportedly violates the Norwegian Copyright Act because the songs can only be played on Apple's iPod.
The French legislature recently received (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/06/20060630152628.shtml) a lot of attention for trying to pass a similar law in France. There was speculation that Apple would withdraw iTunes from France if the law came into effect. In the end a softened version of the law passed in France and has had no immediate effects on Apple iTunes France.
more...
.jpg "justin bieber crying down to")
RichP
Oct 19, 11:11 AM
Two can play at that game. I still have the 400 shares I bought in 1997.
Do the math. :)
Damn! Can only wonder what it cost back then..those were dark days back then...
Do the math. :)
Damn! Can only wonder what it cost back then..those were dark days back then...
IJ Reilly
Oct 23, 10:27 AM
I would love for apple to use 10 billion to innovate fantastically, enter new markets, go green, and more. I don't think it's going to happen- the purpose of 10 billion in the bank for apple is having 10 billion in the bank. Apple's expertise is in taking big risks (at least large for a compnay of their size), a good number of which pay off very, very well. But people- investors, CEOs, are risk adverse, and a huge pile of cash to operate on, so big they can operate and continue to invest in risky and exciting products, mitigates their risks. For apple, a pile of money might actually be worth more than investing that money at a high rate of return.
Huge cash hordes are only good for three things, in order of desirability: reinvesting in future growth (which is why it's called capitalism); returning to the stockholders in the form of dividends; or holding for a rainy day. The last reason, which you seem to think is the best one, should be seen by investors as a signal that the company lacks confidence in the future.
Actually, there's a fourth use of excess cash: a stock buy-back. Apple isn't doing this with the money currently, either.
I agree, the huge stockpile of cash is an issue. That's money that should be working for Apple, and IMHO that should be in the form of purchasing other companies that will strengthen Apple in key areas, like music distribution and/or audio/video/graphics production.
And I also agree with you on the dividend issue. A small investment of that money into dividends may have the exact effect as you describe. On the other hand, putting that money into new products/enhancing existing products, may do more for Apple's long-term health vs. providing a dividend to improve the 'optics' of the company in shareholders' eyes.
New investments in technologies and products would be by far the best use of the money. With Apple's cash, they could set up a research arm similar to Xerox PARC or the old Bell Labs and place themselves in the forefront of new technology for a long time. Instead, they seem to be notably stingy with their R&D dollars. Purchasing technologies by buying out smaller companies could also be advantageous, and Apple does do some of this, but not much -- not enough to make even a dent in their cash hoard.
Huge cash hordes are only good for three things, in order of desirability: reinvesting in future growth (which is why it's called capitalism); returning to the stockholders in the form of dividends; or holding for a rainy day. The last reason, which you seem to think is the best one, should be seen by investors as a signal that the company lacks confidence in the future.
Actually, there's a fourth use of excess cash: a stock buy-back. Apple isn't doing this with the money currently, either.
I agree, the huge stockpile of cash is an issue. That's money that should be working for Apple, and IMHO that should be in the form of purchasing other companies that will strengthen Apple in key areas, like music distribution and/or audio/video/graphics production.
And I also agree with you on the dividend issue. A small investment of that money into dividends may have the exact effect as you describe. On the other hand, putting that money into new products/enhancing existing products, may do more for Apple's long-term health vs. providing a dividend to improve the 'optics' of the company in shareholders' eyes.
New investments in technologies and products would be by far the best use of the money. With Apple's cash, they could set up a research arm similar to Xerox PARC or the old Bell Labs and place themselves in the forefront of new technology for a long time. Instead, they seem to be notably stingy with their R&D dollars. Purchasing technologies by buying out smaller companies could also be advantageous, and Apple does do some of this, but not much -- not enough to make even a dent in their cash hoard.
more...
Zolk
Nov 24, 02:19 AM
The sale is on. :)
24-inch iMac ordered. :D
24-inch iMac ordered. :D
wHo_tHe
Jan 15, 04:38 PM
Overall, disappointing.
From the MacRumors live update (thanks guys), there was waaaaaay too much dull stuff about movies /snore Agreed.
Someone needs to ask Steve (the nouveau movie and entertainment mogul) the same thing he once asked John Sculley:
"Do you want to spend the rest of your life selling cartoons or do you want to change the world?"
From the MacRumors live update (thanks guys), there was waaaaaay too much dull stuff about movies /snore Agreed.
Someone needs to ask Steve (the nouveau movie and entertainment mogul) the same thing he once asked John Sculley:
"Do you want to spend the rest of your life selling cartoons or do you want to change the world?"
more...
Patrick J
Apr 30, 03:14 AM
You didn't have to slide the thing, you know? It behaved like ol' buttons, to select an option just click it, and the animation instead of been a pressing button was a slider..
And that's exactly why they changed it. To users it isn't apparent that you can click, and sliding on the screen is a waste of time.
And that's exactly why they changed it. To users it isn't apparent that you can click, and sliding on the screen is a waste of time.
ritmomundo
Mar 17, 12:16 PM
I think its the kid's responsibility here. The OP had every intention of paying for his purchase, but the cashier dropped the ball big time. When you take on a job, you assume the responsibilities that come with it. Making a mistake that big will have consequences. I would hate to have someone that makes mistakes like that working for me.
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ArtOfWarfare
Jul 21, 10:23 AM
As for people being surprised at Apple's childishness, have you forgotten about the douchetastic "I'm a Mac campaign".
That campaign was saying "Look what we can do that you can't."
That is proper advertising and the way it should be done.
This campaign says "Look, you're just as bad as we are."
I'm a Mac raised the bar, this thing just pulls the bar down.
That campaign was saying "Look what we can do that you can't."
That is proper advertising and the way it should be done.
This campaign says "Look, you're just as bad as we are."
I'm a Mac raised the bar, this thing just pulls the bar down.
Nekbeth
Apr 27, 06:33 PM
The "quiz questions" are necessary because we don't know what it is you know or think you know. We can't read your mind. This is how information is exchanged and we can come to the appropriate level or explanation to be able to help you. It can also help you find the answer yourself by talking through it.
talking through it ?? thats funny, as soon as someone mentions "what's a pointer"..everyone shoots to kill here, and they tell you to step out or go deep yourself in books. The last thing you'll get is a simple answer, which 1 out 20 developers give you without asking you "Have you even read the objective-C manual?? cause if not you should leave the Real Coding and go study now"
For someone seeking our help, you sure are quick to dismiss it. Again, everyone in this thread has been trying to help you. A little cooperation on your part would be appreciated.
Help us help you. If we have questions, it's because we don't quite understand what you are seeking help on.
Knight, just go to page 2 and look at the problem. It's very clear what I'm looking for and many developers have try to solve it. dejo describes it step by step. If you don't understand ask me, because many others understand it.
(I think 2/3 pages in this thread are not related to the code itself, instead everybody is giving his point of view about why or why not Pro developers should help new ones.)
talking through it ?? thats funny, as soon as someone mentions "what's a pointer"..everyone shoots to kill here, and they tell you to step out or go deep yourself in books. The last thing you'll get is a simple answer, which 1 out 20 developers give you without asking you "Have you even read the objective-C manual?? cause if not you should leave the Real Coding and go study now"
For someone seeking our help, you sure are quick to dismiss it. Again, everyone in this thread has been trying to help you. A little cooperation on your part would be appreciated.
Help us help you. If we have questions, it's because we don't quite understand what you are seeking help on.
Knight, just go to page 2 and look at the problem. It's very clear what I'm looking for and many developers have try to solve it. dejo describes it step by step. If you don't understand ask me, because many others understand it.
(I think 2/3 pages in this thread are not related to the code itself, instead everybody is giving his point of view about why or why not Pro developers should help new ones.)
Macula
Oct 28, 04:40 PM
As long as it is MEANINGFUL to run OS/X on generic PCs, technical solutions (and ever better ones for that matter) will always be found.
The only way for Apple to safeguard OS/X from generic machines is to make such hacking MEANINGLESS. The solution is not in security technologies such as TPM but in MARKETING: Building machines that are evidently cheaper, beautiful, feature-rich and FASTER than the competition.
(Same goes for iPod and DRM, which was also cracked recently).
The only way for Apple to safeguard OS/X from generic machines is to make such hacking MEANINGLESS. The solution is not in security technologies such as TPM but in MARKETING: Building machines that are evidently cheaper, beautiful, feature-rich and FASTER than the competition.
(Same goes for iPod and DRM, which was also cracked recently).
Thinine
Apr 29, 03:53 PM
Finally, Apple has made a significant change to one of the first user interface changes observed (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/10/25/mac-os-x-lion-notes-ios-scroll-bars-any-corner-resizing-dock-changes/) way back in October when Apple first demoed Mac OS X Lion: iOS-style scrollbars. Initial builds of Mac OS X Lion had featured scrollbars that overlaid the window's comments, appearing only when necessary and then disappearing after a brief period of time.
Apple has done away with that concept, returning to fixed scrollbars (http://images.macrumors.com/article/2011/04/29/163551-lion_scrollbar_non_overlay.jpg) along the right side of each window, although they do retain the dark iOS-like appearance. The refined scrollbars are present at all times and do not disappear after use.
No they haven't. Fading is now a user preference. You can have them fade automatically, stay all the time, or fade according to your input device.
Apple has done away with that concept, returning to fixed scrollbars (http://images.macrumors.com/article/2011/04/29/163551-lion_scrollbar_non_overlay.jpg) along the right side of each window, although they do retain the dark iOS-like appearance. The refined scrollbars are present at all times and do not disappear after use.
No they haven't. Fading is now a user preference. You can have them fade automatically, stay all the time, or fade according to your input device.
Mord
Apr 27, 01:19 PM
Where to start....
- How about the definition of "Gender".... I am not talking about "Gender roles" or "norms" or any of that. I am speaking ONLY about the scientific aspect of "Gender".
Case in point: Lets say a transgendered individual is stricken with a life threatening ailment. Now we all know that certain illnesses are more prone to certain genders. The doctor asks you what gender you are, in order to diagnose and cure you before you die. No matter how much you are convinced that you are actually gender "X" despite being born gender "Y", you are still going to be disposed to illnesses that effect gender "Y".
Anyone care to debate that?
Another thing- I find it very interesting how quickly you guys started to assume I'm being "narrow minded" and how I need to "broaden my horizons"...
I find it even more interesting that you jumped to the same conclusions (prejudicial conclusions, perhaps) despite my twice stating that I support transgender rights and that it is not a personal choice but an inherent predisposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender it's all a bit grey there....
Having been a transgender individual in a potentially life threatening situation a couple of times, generally I informed them of my medical history like any sane patient would.
You're focusing on selective binary aspects of sex in a topic relating to transgender people, do you not think that this could be seen as somewhat offensive and inappropriate?
As I said, I am what I am, I'm fine with that, I just don't appreciate you "helpfully" pointing out that there are certain aspects of sex-differentiation you can't erase.
That does not mean you're not being a douchebag when you directly or indirectly call a transsexual woman a man or male, even citing your oversimplified ideas of sex and gender. It propagates a culture that sees us in terms of our troubled history rather than who we are and in some cases will be.
Does that make things clear for you? I'm not trying to be confrontational for the sake of it.
- How about the definition of "Gender".... I am not talking about "Gender roles" or "norms" or any of that. I am speaking ONLY about the scientific aspect of "Gender".
Case in point: Lets say a transgendered individual is stricken with a life threatening ailment. Now we all know that certain illnesses are more prone to certain genders. The doctor asks you what gender you are, in order to diagnose and cure you before you die. No matter how much you are convinced that you are actually gender "X" despite being born gender "Y", you are still going to be disposed to illnesses that effect gender "Y".
Anyone care to debate that?
Another thing- I find it very interesting how quickly you guys started to assume I'm being "narrow minded" and how I need to "broaden my horizons"...
I find it even more interesting that you jumped to the same conclusions (prejudicial conclusions, perhaps) despite my twice stating that I support transgender rights and that it is not a personal choice but an inherent predisposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender it's all a bit grey there....
Having been a transgender individual in a potentially life threatening situation a couple of times, generally I informed them of my medical history like any sane patient would.
You're focusing on selective binary aspects of sex in a topic relating to transgender people, do you not think that this could be seen as somewhat offensive and inappropriate?
As I said, I am what I am, I'm fine with that, I just don't appreciate you "helpfully" pointing out that there are certain aspects of sex-differentiation you can't erase.
That does not mean you're not being a douchebag when you directly or indirectly call a transsexual woman a man or male, even citing your oversimplified ideas of sex and gender. It propagates a culture that sees us in terms of our troubled history rather than who we are and in some cases will be.
Does that make things clear for you? I'm not trying to be confrontational for the sake of it.
Weaselboy
Apr 22, 10:04 AM
I do think there should only be "ups", but the icon could be a checkmark. When you click it some subtext would appear below/next to it. Something like "You liked this comment" or "You agree with comment" or "This comment was helpful".
I completely agree with you on this. Posts should be marked if they are helpful etc and just ignored if they are not. The site can still use the data in the same way for whatever site improvements they want later.
Having "downvotes" will I suspect lead to what we see on Reddit comments where any post that does not fall in line with the hivemind gets downvoted. Getting downvoted leads to people getting discouraged and not participating in the discussion IMO. Outright abusive posts can still be reported to the mods.
I completely agree with you on this. Posts should be marked if they are helpful etc and just ignored if they are not. The site can still use the data in the same way for whatever site improvements they want later.
Having "downvotes" will I suspect lead to what we see on Reddit comments where any post that does not fall in line with the hivemind gets downvoted. Getting downvoted leads to people getting discouraged and not participating in the discussion IMO. Outright abusive posts can still be reported to the mods.
NebulaClash
Apr 29, 02:37 PM
Steve Jobs' "PC is a truck" analogy was perfect. What these people aren't getting is that most computer users aren't nerds and hackers, but they've been forced to drive trucks all these years when they'd really be a lot happier with a Honda Civic.
PCs are to be used for tasks a nerdy kid would get beat up for talking about in school. That's the test I use. Everything else is better suited to the post-PC world.
And if you can make the PCs friendlier by adding post-PC features for the less technical tasks, what's wrong with that? It's a better experience for non-techies that have to use PCs for one reason or another, and who ever said hackers don't want to use nicer consumer-level software?
Thank you for reminding me of that analogy. It really is a good one, and your points are excellent. Nobody complains when pickup trucks and tractors get cushy seats and high-end sound systems, but add an app store to OS X and people are ready to jump to Windows! Silly.
Folks, there will ALWAYS be professional level PCs for you to do with whatever you wish. The hackers and geeks will have their hardware. That will NEVER end.
But as this post-PC era expands the market for computing devices, there are a lot of people who will be regularly using a computer who never did before, and they won't think of them as computers but just handy tools.
Every time there is this era change, the previous experts get all worried about losing their status as high priests of the current order. Too bad. The world moves on. And maybe one day I'll live long enough to see what comes after the Tablet era. But one thing I know will happen at that time: MacRumors posters whining and moaning about Apple ignoring their beloved iOS devices for this new thing that "isn't really a tablet!"
PCs are to be used for tasks a nerdy kid would get beat up for talking about in school. That's the test I use. Everything else is better suited to the post-PC world.
And if you can make the PCs friendlier by adding post-PC features for the less technical tasks, what's wrong with that? It's a better experience for non-techies that have to use PCs for one reason or another, and who ever said hackers don't want to use nicer consumer-level software?
Thank you for reminding me of that analogy. It really is a good one, and your points are excellent. Nobody complains when pickup trucks and tractors get cushy seats and high-end sound systems, but add an app store to OS X and people are ready to jump to Windows! Silly.
Folks, there will ALWAYS be professional level PCs for you to do with whatever you wish. The hackers and geeks will have their hardware. That will NEVER end.
But as this post-PC era expands the market for computing devices, there are a lot of people who will be regularly using a computer who never did before, and they won't think of them as computers but just handy tools.
Every time there is this era change, the previous experts get all worried about losing their status as high priests of the current order. Too bad. The world moves on. And maybe one day I'll live long enough to see what comes after the Tablet era. But one thing I know will happen at that time: MacRumors posters whining and moaning about Apple ignoring their beloved iOS devices for this new thing that "isn't really a tablet!"
ChrisTX
Apr 25, 07:06 PM
I seriously doubt Apple is going to change the screen size so slightly because it may require a lot of software re-writes (unless the apps are truly resolution independent).
Perhaps, the screen only appears bigger because the borders will relatively shrink in the next generation????
Notice the size the iPhone apps scale to on the iPad is significantly larger than the actual 3.5" of the iPhone and they scale just fine. I didn't read all of the comments, but I've never seen anyone ever point this out before.
Perhaps, the screen only appears bigger because the borders will relatively shrink in the next generation????
Notice the size the iPhone apps scale to on the iPad is significantly larger than the actual 3.5" of the iPhone and they scale just fine. I didn't read all of the comments, but I've never seen anyone ever point this out before.
